So, Yu-san, shall we try that clothing idea we talked about before? (Katori)

—To start, the brand name "JANTJE_ONTEMBAAR" is unfamiliar. Could you tell us its origin?

TsushimaWe first discussed deciding on a name, and I didn't have any particular ideas. Shingo-san came up with two or three options, and "JANTJE_ONTEMBAAR" was one of them.

KatoriI always jot down interesting words and phrases on my phone. I have a huge list. "Jantje" comes from the Dutch word that became the root for "naughty boy," and "ontembaar" for "unruly girl."

TsushimaThe sound of the words was wonderful. I immediately thought, "This is it!"

KatoriEven though I came up with the idea, I worried if anyone could even read the spelling. But Yu-san was like, "No, this is it," so... But I wanted to put my feelings into it, that no matter how old we get, we can still enjoy fashion like a naughty boy and an unruly girl!

—So, was the brand concept also developed quickly?

KatoriIt hasn't even been a year, has it?

TsushimaAround October last year, right?

KatoriYu-san and I have known each other for nearly 25 years, and we've talked a lot about clothes, but neither of us was interested in opening our own shop or brand. We both weren't.

TsushimaBecause we wanted to buy and wear them.

KatoriBut when Yu-san looked at all my clothes for "Fuku Baka Shifuku Bon," he was like, "Wow, you love clothes this much." That's when we really hit it off, and we started joking about "We should do something together someday."

TsushimaWe transported all of Shingo-san's private clothes from his home to the studio, and it was an incredible amount. And it was all neatly organized. Ah, this sounds embarrassing to say, but I was moved by his passion for fashion. I realized there was someone else who was as much of a "fashion geek" as I was.

KatoriThen, last year, a new path opened up for me, and I thought about wanting to do what I wanted and enjoy it. That's when I remembered the conversation about clothes with Yu-san. When we were working together, I asked, "So, Yu-san, do you want to try doing that clothing thing we talked about before?" And then...

TsushimaThings moved forward rapidly.

—In "Fuku Baka Shifuku Bon," you revealed your extensive private collection and discussed fashion at length with Tsushima-san. At the time, you mentioned that buying clothes was your joy. Are your clothes still accumulating?

KatoriI think they've increased to a point where I can't keep track.

TsushimaSame here. And we both have a hard time letting go of clothes.

KatoriDiscarding clothes is unthinkable, right? And we keep buying more. Ah, but back then, even if the size wasn't right, I'd buy clothes I wanted. I've learned to tell myself "wait" on that now. For clothes I won't wear, or shoes I won't put on.

TsushimaThat's the urge that hits you when you go abroad. You think, "I have to go home soon, so I'll just buy it even if the size is wrong."

I really like Katori-san's paintings.
Can we reflect that in the clothes? (Tsushima)

—Did you initially want to start the brand or the store?

KatoriFirst, we decided to create a brand, right?

TsushimaAnd then the store. That's the situation now, and we're about to launch. Right now, alongside the clothing, I'm constantly thinking about what kind of store would be interesting. We've decided on one thing: to create something that doesn't exist elsewhere. But I think "something that can only be expressed here" is more important than "something that doesn't exist elsewhere." I really like Shingo-san's paintings, you see. I've always thought about how we could reflect them in clothing.

—Katori-san, were you unfulfilled by just continuing to buy clothes, feeling there was something you couldn't express?

KatoriI was fulfilled in that regard, but that doesn't mean I didn't have things I wanted to create. However, I don't want to create with themes for Spring/Summer and Autumn/Winter like a typical brand. It's closer to the feeling of painting; once I finish a painting, I want to start the next one immediately. With clothes, once they're in the store, I want to be constantly thinking about what I can do next.

TsushimaIt's a different cycle from the usual fashion calendar. We don't know what the future holds, but it might always be like an improvisation. This time, it all started with Shingo-san painting two pictures.

—And those paintings are used on the lining of the coats produced with "SANYO COAT," and on the lining of the jeans custom-ordered from "MINEDENIM," aren't they?

TsushimaAlso, for women's wear, we're collaborating with "STAIR," and they're printing photos on the skirts. Those were also taken by Shingo-san.

KatoriIt was a sunset view of Tokyo, taken with my iPhone from the observation deck of Roppongi Hills. I just processed it with an app, like on Instagram.

TsushimaPhotographs, like paintings, are art. So, I wanted to use Shingo-san's artistic photographs in our clothing.

KatoriI'd love to display those photos in the store.

TsushimaYes. By the way, Katori-san, you enjoy painting and you enjoy buying clothes. The two have now come together. What do you think is the relationship between clothes and art?

KatoriI started painting with acrylics on canvas about 10 years ago. But recently, I've been asked a lot, "When did you start painting?" so I had to look into it. The other day, when I was bringing some paintings to the Louvre for an exhibition, I was rummaging through my house and found that I had a drawing series in an idol magazine around 1990 or '91, when I was 15 or 16. Looking back, those drawings are pretty wild (laughs). As I've had more opportunities to draw in various places, people around me started saying, "Shingo Katori is doing art these days," and I felt that myself, like, "Yeah, I guess I am." But then I realized, "I've actually been doing it for a long time!"

TsushimaAround that time, Katori-san's fashion was also very hip-hop. Was that connected to graffiti-like street art?

KatoriI think so. Like wearing a gold chain, carrying a boombox, and spray-painting.

TsushimaIt's great when a style emerges from fashion. I became interested in art in the 80s. It wasn't just Basquiat's paintings, but seeing his style in magazines made me want to go to New York. It might be a bit different from Katori-san's experience.

KatoriI like the color red, which I'm wearing today, and I use it in my paintings. The colors in my paintings and my clothes might actually be closely related. In the last few years, people have started talking about fashion and art, and starting "JANTJE_ONTEMBAAR" feels like a very lucky timing. It feels like it aligns with the times by chance. Being able to use my paintings on linings, for example. But unlike before, where people would see a finished painting and that was it, this is the first time my work will be used in 10 or 100 pieces and become part of everyone's lives. I usually paint without thinking too much, but this time I was a little nervous.

TsushimaThe appearance changes depending on the fabric used for printing. We're using it on the lining now, but it could also be used on a removable liner. It's interesting how the shape and details of the clothes change based on the artwork.

KatoriI love painting, and I want many people to see my work, but I'm not good at promoting it myself, like saying, "Don't you think my paintings are good!" I always feel like, "Is it okay? What do you think?"

TsushimaIsn't that fine? But what should we do in the future? Should we keep using this painting as our icon?

KatoriI'll keep painting. It's not difficult at all. Yu-san and everyone else worry, "Isn't painting hard?" but I want to change frequently.

TsushimaThat's good. Fashion has to change, or it dies.

KatoriI'm planning to display two paintings in the store, but they might change or increase. Then, in the future, I'd love to have a gallery of the fabrics used in "JANTJE_ONTEMBAAR."

—Maison often features artists' works in their collections, but the idea of clothes changing based on art is a fresh, reverse approach.

Always Thinking of the Fans First
Perhaps I'm thinking about the clothes too. (Katori)

—You mentioned women's wear earlier. Were there any difficulties in the clothing creation process?

TsushimaShingo-san often offers opinions that truly consider the wearer. I was particularly surprised by his input on women's wear, as it felt like he was speaking for women's feelings.

KatoriI was surprised myself that I was more concerned about things that women might find bothersome when actually wearing them, rather than designs that were overly avant-garde. I want people who can't take risks with fashion due to their jobs or other reasons to enjoy it too.

TsushimaI tended to focus on the visual aspect since I wouldn't be wearing it myself. For example, I'd say things like, "This turtleneck would look more beautiful if the collar were a bit higher." But conversely, Shingo-san would say, "It's better if it's not too tight." A blouse might look sexier and more elegant with a deeper neckline...

KatoriWe were discussing how it might be difficult to wear unless the neckline was raised by another centimeter or two.

TsushimaPerhaps that's what's creating a positive reaction?

KatoriIf a model were wearing it, a deeper neckline by another 2cm might be fine, but I found it strange that I was focusing on such details. But when I think about it, discussing fashion is often more enjoyable with women.

TsushimaWith "STAIR," who we collaborated with for this project, a female designer creates clothes for women, so I learned a lot.

KatoriI think I ended up thinking a lot about the fans. When I do something, it makes me happy if people who support me enjoy it. They might not love fashion as much as I do, but if I'm starting a brand or a store with Yu-san, I want them to be interested. Considering the fans who don't usually wear these kinds of clothes, a neckline 2cm higher would probably be better.

—Could you tell us about the iconic coats?

TsushimaThe custom order with "SANYO COAT" started from a discussion about whether we could base it on a coat I owned from the 80s, made by Sanyo Shokai. It had a very oversized design, so they don't make them anymore. We started by digging through their archives. I really wanted that look – the washed, crinkled texture, yet with a proper structure.

KatoriWe went to the warehouse too.

TsushimaWe did. The first pattern they proposed was a bit different from what I envisioned, so we went to Sanyo Shokai's warehouse where they store their archives. We chose together from piles of leftover fabric.

—That's practically manual labor. But as expected from "SANYO COAT," the fabric quality is superb.

TsushimaBased on the archives we found, they created new fabric for us. And the ideas kept expanding, like whether we could directly print the paintings onto it. We're also making denim coats with "MINEDENIM."

Connecting the Store Monitors via Skype
I want to talk with the customers. (Katori)

—Finally, could you tell us about your future plans for the store?

TsushimaWe should really be thinking about the next collection, but the idea of making the store more interesting comes first.

KatoriA fun store. I'd like to pull out and display some of my archives that I don't even remember myself.

TsushimaThat idea came up too.

KatoriLike, "Can I buy this?" "Sorry, you can't, but isn't it wonderful?" (laughs).

—That sounds like an exhibition at that point.

TsushimaI think that's a level of fashion passion that not everyone can understand. When you own a vast amount of clothing, people ask, "You don't wear them, so why do you have so many?" That's the biggest question for most people, but for us, it's not a question at all. We simply need them.

It's important to store them carefully and admire them. If I say that, people will call me crazy. That's why we're "fashion geeks" (laughs). And the way Shingo-san organizes his archives is truly beautiful.

KatoriI have several places where I store my shoes and clothes. The other day, one place got full of shoes, so I organized it. I thought I'd put away the shoes I don't wear. Then I found I had 65 pairs of shoes I actually wear. Seeing that, I felt so down, thinking, "That's so few!" (laughs).

TsushimaI know, I know. You fall into a state of utter despair and a strange state of mind. About five years ago, I sold about 25 racks of clothes at a garage sale, but I still had five times that amount left in storage, and I was like, "No!"

—We'd love for you to sell your archives too. By the way, are you interested in becoming salespeople?

KatoriBecause we want to create a store that we ourselves would want to visit as customers.

TsushimaThat's right. We want to maintain a space that's hard to define – is it a store, a gallery, or a playground?

KatoriBut we have an idea that's close to that. We're planning to put monitors in the store. Videos will play on them, but we also want to install cameras and connect to Skype. If we have time, we want to connect via Skype, link up with the store, and be able to converse with the customers who visit.

TsushimaWe definitely want to do that.

KatoriI go to the store frequently, and even when I'm too busy to go, I want to connect via Skype on my smartphone so that I can see the store from my end too.

TsushimaIt's good to have a place where we can communicate.

KatoriI want to be able to say things like, "That outfit looks amazing on you!"